Comments on: The Suicide Pact, Part II: Malice Aforethought http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/ Begging your indulgence since 200x. Tue, 22 Jun 2010 15:35:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Poor Tom http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/comment-page-1/#comment-1275 Poor Tom Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:55:35 +0000 http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/#comment-1275 This comment = 2 cents.. I think in your example you should probably bet the river with AJo, not check-call - not against a tight player (or someone so crazy loose you think there's a great chance your hand is good and you want to induce a bet), but seeing as you think based on the evidence there's a reasonable chance he's been bluffing or on a busted draw, I think you've got bet out - you've got a decent chance of getting a fold and you're planning on calling a bet anyway. Also I would probably try to make a play on the flop rather than the turn on that board, and I generally try to avoid playing AJo out of position as it's too easily dominated.. More generally I'm interested in your coming thoughts on playing v. a tightish, agressive sharky player. I'm not sure it's really possible to make much money off the genuine sharks long term, but you might be able to break even with them or back them off you - I would think that rocking up is a bad idea if you want to get even with them or better, to do that you'd probably need to play as aggressively as them on marginal holdings when you've gone to the flop with them. But it's probably better to focus on making your money off the other players anyway - the wusses and the maniacs.. that very aggressive game is definitely tough to play well (for me anyway), especially a good players, and it may well be better to just stay out of big hands with the sharks except with the nuts, and know you're probably giving up some value overall.. but if the table is all sharks maybe you should move tables! This comment = 2 cents..

I think in your example you should probably bet the river with AJo, not check-call – not against a tight player (or someone so crazy loose you think there’s a great chance your hand is good and you want to induce a bet), but seeing as you think based on the evidence there’s a reasonable chance he’s been bluffing or on a busted draw, I think you’ve got bet out – you’ve got a decent chance of getting a fold and you’re planning on calling a bet anyway. Also I would probably try to make a play on the flop rather than the turn on that board, and I generally try to avoid playing AJo out of position as it’s too easily dominated..

More generally I’m interested in your coming thoughts on playing v. a tightish, agressive sharky player. I’m not sure it’s really possible to make much money off the genuine sharks long term, but you might be able to break even with them or back them off you – I would think that rocking up is a bad idea if you want to get even with them or better, to do that you’d probably need to play as aggressively as them on marginal holdings when you’ve gone to the flop with them. But it’s probably better to focus on making your money off the other players anyway – the wusses and the maniacs.. that very aggressive game is definitely tough to play well (for me anyway), especially a good players, and it may well be better to just stay out of big hands with the sharks except with the nuts, and know you’re probably giving up some value overall.. but if the table is all sharks maybe you should move tables!

]]> By: dankhank http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/comment-page-1/#comment-1194 dankhank Sun, 04 Jun 2006 06:10:06 +0000 http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/#comment-1194 very good post. i don't play limit poker much anymore, but your post was a great summary of the back and forth that goes on between expert players and tight mediocre players. in many ways it is a constant game of chicken involving the metagame factors you point out. imo the best solution is to retreat to rock-like state somewhat when oop, but to constantly be skating some sort of aggresive, slightly loose edge where opponents can't tell whether you're a shark, a trapper, or a nobody. very good post. i don’t play limit poker much anymore, but your post was a great summary of the back and forth that goes on between expert players and tight mediocre players. in many ways it is a constant game of chicken involving the metagame factors you point out. imo the best solution is to retreat to rock-like state somewhat when oop, but to constantly be skating some sort of aggresive, slightly loose edge where opponents can’t tell whether you’re a shark, a trapper, or a nobody.

]]> By: Absinthe http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/comment-page-1/#comment-1131 Absinthe Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:27:30 +0000 http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/#comment-1131 My math on the subject goes roughly as follows: for every hundred pots you enter, you win forty without a showdown when your opponent makes nothing by the turn, netting about 80BB total. The remaining sixty pots that go to the river are larger, natch, with a net swing of slightly over 4BB each, so a potential of +-240BB. Win 40% of those hands at showdown and your net for "non-stolen" pots is -48BB, for a total pulled-out-of-ass EV of around +32BB. My assumptions may be absolutely insane, granted. My math on the subject goes roughly as follows: for every hundred pots you enter, you win forty without a showdown when your opponent makes nothing by the turn, netting about 80BB total. The remaining sixty pots that go to the river are larger, natch, with a net swing of slightly over 4BB each, so a potential of +-240BB. Win 40% of those hands at showdown and your net for “non-stolen” pots is -48BB, for a total pulled-out-of-ass EV of around +32BB.

My assumptions may be absolutely insane, granted.

]]> By: Mark http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/comment-page-1/#comment-1130 Mark Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:55:26 +0000 http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/#comment-1130 Put me down in the "retreat to rocklike play" camp. I think there's more risk than reward in the paper shark strategy -- unless you're an exceptional player. My impression is that dodging and weaving like the shark opens you up to the possibility of making mistakes that will cost more bets than they win. Also, it's hard to be a winning player if you only win 40 percent of hands at showdown. I don't think I've seen anyone who's been able to pull it off. Good post -- I'm looking forward to the General Theory of Relativity of Poker. Put me down in the “retreat to rocklike play” camp. I think there’s more risk than reward in the paper shark strategy — unless you’re an exceptional player. My impression is that dodging and weaving like the shark opens you up to the possibility of making mistakes that will cost more bets than they win.
Also, it’s hard to be a winning player if you only win 40 percent of hands at showdown. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who’s been able to pull it off.
Good post — I’m looking forward to the General Theory of Relativity of Poker.

]]> By: DeadMoney Poker: The best poker blog posts from around the web http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/comment-page-1/#comment-9440 DeadMoney Poker: The best poker blog posts from around the web Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/#comment-9440 <!--%kramer-pre%-->Played a goodly amount of poker this weekend, largely heads-up 10/20 LHE. Heads-up LHE is an odd game, if you're both reasonably savvy. Ryan expressed it much better than I can in his Suicide Pact Posts I and II (and then conveniently abandoned the conclusion and left everyone hanging), but I'd forgotten the odd nature of heads-up/extremely shorthanded play. It often resolves itself into extremely aggressive action where the loser is the first person to blink,<!--%kramer-post%--> links from TechnoratiPlayed a goodly amount of poker this weekend, largely heads-up 10/20 LHE. Heads-up LHE is an odd game, if you’re both reasonably savvy. Ryan expressed it much better than I can in his Suicide Pact Posts I and II (and then conveniently abandoned the conclusion and left everyone hanging), but I’d forgotten the odd nature of heads-up/extremely shorthanded play. It often resolves itself into extremely aggressive action where the loser is the first person to blink,

]]> By: Pot Committed http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/comment-page-1/#comment-9441 Pot Committed Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.absinthetics.com/blog/2006/06/01/the-suicide-pact-part-ii-malice-aforethought/#comment-9441 <!--%kramer-pre%--> $6K Guaranteed. I had a nice-sized stack at the final table and felt I was headed for a top three finish had my KK not been cracked by 33. Speaking of Ryan, please do your poker game a favor and check out his recent posts The Suicide Pact, Part I andPart II as well as No Good Deed. I've played a lot with Ryan and I've been sweated by him even more. He's wicked smart, a helluva player and I can't say enough about the good things he's done for my game.<!--%kramer-post%--> links from Technorati $6K Guaranteed. I had a nice-sized stack at the final table and felt I was headed for a top three finish had my KK not been cracked by 33. Speaking of Ryan, please do your poker game a favor and check out his recent posts The Suicide Pact, Part I andPart II as well as No Good Deed. I’ve played a lot with Ryan and I’ve been sweated by him even more. He’s wicked smart, a helluva player and I can’t say enough about the good things he’s done for my game.

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